[jws01]

I tried to understand the concept of storage, libraries and using of csv with larger PDFs

My use case:
I'm a trumpet player and we use books with 40 to 600 titles.
I splitted the books in PDFs with  up to 100 pages.
Only the conductor (in german Dirigent) her husband and I are using MS. All others are using the Books.
The conductor sends per Dropbox the songs as single pdfs, but unfortunately not with a clear structure and also with her markings by hand in the files.
I want to convince her to use my approach with the csv. As I understand, then she could send me *.mss files.


As long as we have not a common approach, she and I need at least two libraries each to keep the csv-pdfs and the single-pdfs separated.

It seems, that I cannot chose for each library a complete other location/path?!
With "create subdirectories for songs" there is not a subdirectory per song but per csv-pdf. Strangely the subdirectory has not the name of the csv-pdf, but the name of the first song in the pdf!

Johannes

I have no clue how I should chose the settings for my use case.
Hints are very welcome!

[jws01]

I tried to understand the concept of storage, libraries and using of csv with larger PDFs
...

As no one reacted to my post,
Here some questions for @zubersoft and maybe @itsme

- What pros and cons has the approach with ~100 pages long pdf files combined with csv files? And in case of more cons how to handle this otherwise?
- Is it possible to chose for each library a complete other location/path (Maybe in combination with the settings)?
- Is it a bug that, when using subdirectories, the subdirectory has not the name of the csv-pdf, but the name of the first song in the pdf?
- If I give my conductor a backup of my complete library, can she chose a different path on her tablet than I?

Thank you in advance,
Johannes

[Lawrie]

I hesitated to respond to the first message as there are more knowledgeable members than me, but here goes anyway:

Firstly, I think you need to understand how MS stores your music.  It simply doesn't matter whether your PDF file is a single song or multiple songs, provided you use the appropriate method, each song is a separate database entry.  Please note, I see no point in importing a PDF with multiple songs into a single MS database entry, and then having to hunt through the pages to find the actual song you want - this is a very uninformed approach.

The database stores the song name, along with the name of the PDF file the song is contained in, as well as the page number(s) and whatever else metadata you may have specified.  It does NOT store the actual image of the music.

Secondly, there are a number of methods of creating song entries in the database:

1. Manually, using the "New" button while in the Songs tab - I've never actually used this method myself
   
2. Importing, either single or multiple, PDF files using options from the "Import" button menu.  E.G. Local File, Dropbox, &etc..  (If you're starting the import from a collection or setlist then this part will be automatically populated in the songs metadata).  I regularly use this method.
   
3. Importing via CSV or PDF Bookmarks (also from the "Import" button menu).  These methods work great.  If the PDF contains useful bookmarks, then each bookmark entry becomes a song in the database.  Personally, I prefer going to the effort of preparing a CSV file as is gives me greater control of the imported data.  I use a template CSV as a starting point to make things easier.  I regularly use this method too.  CSVs are GREAT for fake books!
   

As an example of mixing the import methods in a single library, I have a band I play in that currently has over 3200 songs in its MS library.  One PDF contains 959 songs*, each of which became a separate entry in the MS database.  Several other PDFs also contain multiple songs, each of which became separate entries in the database.
There are also several hundred single song PDFs, and again, each song is a separate entry in the database.

As I hope you can see, there really is no need for 2 libraries to keep the import types separate.  In fact, this approach is counter productive.**

====
OK, now for storage locations.  By default, MS manages storage locations on your behalf.  There are even some features that require this in order to work correctly.  If you are happy with that, then leave it alone.  You need a good reason to change that.
My reason is that I am far too anally retentive for this and I manage storage locations manually.  Each band I play in has its own folder, and sometimes several sub folders (usually when different instruments are involved, though I did do some experiments with a sub-directory per collection where a bands songs are stored in multiple physical folders and I wanted to replicate that for ease of use), and all associated PDFs are stored in the appropriate folder - I do this manually by copying them into the required location(s) prior to import.  I then do a "local" import and the files remain where I put them.  Note that it was necessary to tell MS that it is NOT allowed to manage my files: Uncheck "Settings|Storage|Let MobileSheets Manage My Files" 
Due to the fact that I use separate libraries for each band, then each library only references files from the relevant directory structure:
E.G. "Band 1" uses library "Band 1" and directory structure "Band1" where all PDFs etc. for that Band/Library are stored.
       "Band 2" uses library "Band 2" and directory structure "Band2" where all PDFs etc. for that Band/Library are stored.
    &etc..

Ultimately, you need to use a storage strategy that works for you.  If you're happy with the default method of letting the computer manage all that for you with no input from yourself, then that's definitely the way to go.  It just doesn't work for my personality...

====
I hope this has been at least somewhat helpful.
Lawrie
====
* NB only ONE copy of this PDF exists in my tablet's storage.  The database is capable of referencing different pages for each song and thus only one PDF is required.  This saves a lot of space.

** I'm a great believer in multiple libraries in the right circumstances.  As I play different instruments, and in 8 plus different bands (several of which I play multiple instruments/parts depending on need), AND there is practically no crossover in the songs each band plays***, I find it appropriate for each band to have it's own library.  However, and this is important, it would be a really, really bad idea for me to use multiple libraries in the ONE band: it would make creating setlists impossible for a start, plus the loss of time in swapping libraries between songs - this is just plain not smart.

*** In many of the bands, the song titles may be duplicated, but the associated part (and thus PDF) will be totally different.  E.G. I play in 2 different Concert Bands.  In one I play Trombone, in the other I play Tuba.  The difficulty level is different between the bands so the charts reflect that (the band I play Tuba in generally plays grade 2 and 3 charts, while the band I play Trombone in uses grade 3, 4 and 5 charts and I could be on Trom 1, 2 or 3).  Combining these 2 libraries into one would only be confusing.
To continue the example I also play in 3 different Big Bands, each of which uses different charts for the same titles as per the concert bands already mentioned - and of course, I play Trom 1 in 2 of the bands and Trom 2 in the third, buuuut, this can change on the night if someone is away, or we have an extra player sitting in etc..
Then there's the 2 brass bands I play in, not to mention the 2 Jazz ensembles...  And on and on.

[jws01]

Thank you very much, Lawrie for your response!

I understand (mostly) how MS stores my music. For each of the PDF files I have a CSV File. But as I don't know how a big PDF slows down the loading (at least at the beginning) I decided to split the bigger books in more than one PDF (and a coresponding CSV for each).

Yes, the database stores the song name, page number(s) some metadata (as e. g. page crops )  and also maybe a song ID.

As explained I use method 3 with CSV for creating songs in the database. Starting with an xlsx-File in Excel with formulas for pages and offsets (PDF starts with page one, but the book starts e. g. with page four). Then I copy only the values in another sheet and save this then as CSV.

The part after ==== of your answer is the most interesting for me. 
I guess you use subfolders for different instruments, because you need different notes for different instruments. This is not the case for me/our "band". 
We play using
klingend notiert = in concert pitch
Partitur in klingender Notation = concert pitch score

I agree with your statement in ** that multiple libraries in one band are sub optimal. 
But as long as my conductor give me single PDFs for each song via dropbox, I have to manage two libraries to keep this different approaches separated. 

I hoped that mike has some advice for me, but up to now it's not the case.

Best regards
Johannes

[Zubersoft]

Johannes,

It seems you could just have two different libraries, and enable the option to isolate storage for each library. That will keep the files completely separate for the two. I would recommend leaving "Create Subdirectory per Song" off, as that is just going to complicate things and lead to duplicate files.

Mike

[Lawrie]

<snip>
But as long as my conductor give me single PDFs for each song via dropbox, I have to manage two libraries to keep this different approaches separated. 

Hi Johannes, I confess that I am at a loss to understand why you feel you need to keep the approaches separated, it certainly must make things unnecessarily harder to use 2 libraries for what is essentially one set of songs.
It simply doesn't matter to MS how the song ends up in the database, so long as it does.  MS keeps track of the pdf, NOT the csv, which is a kind of single use file - once the song is imported MS doesn't need the csv anymore.

I only described how I manage my storage and library use to demonstrate that there is simply no need to keep single song and multi song pdfs separated in different libraries.

[jws01]

Hi Johannes, I confess that I am at a loss to understand why you feel you need to keep the approaches separated, it certainly must make things unnecessarily harder to use 2 libraries for what is essentially one set of songs.
It simply doesn't matter to MS how the song ends up in the database, so long as it does.  MS keeps track of the pdf, NOT the csv, which is a kind of single use file - once the song is imported MS doesn't need the csv anymore.

I only described how I manage my storage and library use to demonstrate that there is simply no need to keep single song and multi song pdfs separated in different libraries.

I understand, that it is possible to have both kind (via csv and single PDF) in the library. 
The Problem is, this are the same songs, from the same books. But she sends me her songs per pdf-files via dropbox including her marks and they are not originally from me but from her scanned and processed.

Therefore, if we practice some of the songs over more weeks, I have duplicates of songs. Because she sends every week the songs new per dropbox.

As long as I not fully understand, how I can prevent this duplicates, I tend to keep this in two separate libraries!

Sure, it would be nice and clean if we could share the songs by 
setlists *.mss (possible if the other person has the same library; shares only the identification not the PDFs as I understand)
 or songlists *.msf (unclear, whether it includes the PDF-Files or only a list of them. Also unclear if only a list is shared how the correct PDF will be found in the other library)

Thanks for the reply, hope my problems are clearer now,
Johannes

[Zubersoft]

A .msf file always contains all the files used by any songs included in the .msf. 

I'm not sure I see a problem here if you use multiple libraries. Perhaps I need to go through your description of the problem again, as it just seems like having two separately libraries with isolated storage prevents any conflicts.

Mike

[Lawrie]

I understand, that it is possible to have both kind (via csv and single PDF) in the library. 
The Problem is, this are the same songs, from the same books. But she sends me her songs per pdf-files via dropbox including her marks and they are not originally from me but from her scanned and processed.

Therefore, if we practice some of the songs over more weeks, I have duplicates of songs. Because she sends every week the songs new per dropbox.

As long as I not fully understand, how I can prevent this duplicates, I tend to keep this in two separate libraries!

Sure, it would be nice and clean if we could share the songs by 
setlists *.mss (possible if the other person has the same library; shares only the identification not the PDFs as I understand)
 or songlists *.msf (unclear, whether it includes the PDF-Files or only a list of them. Also unclear if only a list is shared how the correct PDF will be found in the other library)

Thanks for the reply, hope my problems are clearer now,
Johannes

I think I understand.
If the songs are duplicates then I simply wouldn't re-import the ones I already have.

If, however, there are changes between weeks in the PDF then you need to decide whether to duplicate or replace - both are possible, but from what you've said they seem to be exact duplicates, so just don't (re)import the ones you don't need/already have.

I.E. If the duplicate is coming in as part of a large PDF, simply leave the duplicated songs out of the CSV.  If the duplicate is a single PDF then just don't import it.

Ultimately you need to do what works best for you, but it seems to me you're making a lot of extra work for yourself.

[jws01]

... as it just seems like having two separately libraries with isolated storage prevents any conflicts.

Mike

Thats exactly what I want at the moment, but don't reach!

with
library 1: PCND_JS (this one includes only big PDFs imported with csv-Files)
library 2: PC_DR (includes each Song as PDFs; no clear naming structure etc.)

I tried to seperate into
/storage/emulated/0/MobileSheetsPro/ 
for library 1: subfolder pcnd_js
for library 2: subfolder pc_dr

Is this possible?
And if so, how?

Storage: 
Let Mobile Sheets Manage My Files      unchecked, right?
Set the MS Storage Location                /storage/emulated/0/MobileSheetsPro/  , right?
Expose Database File                         checked, right?
...
are additonal settings relevant?

Thank you,
Johannes

[Lawrie]

Hi Johannes,
umm, stupid question time...

You do realise that using this method you need to copy your PDFs into the desired locations manually, right?
Then, when you do the import, MS will use the PDFs directly from those locations.

This is exactly what I do so I can manage storage locations in a way that makes sense to me.  FWIW I currently have 14 libraries.  Some are used for experimenting, some for active bands that I play in, and some for tutorials and one-off gigs.  About 7 or 8 are used constantly, the rest are mostly just there...

Although you can use any accessible location on the device (there are problems associated with removable storage so don't put anything there), in my case I used the default storage location: "/storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files", as my top level directory for my different library storage locations*.  E.G.:
/storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files/libraryname1
/storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files/libraryname2
etc..

I've also found the Companion doesn't give any options for copying files to arbitrary locations so is not quite as useful to me as it might have been.  However, this is because of choices I've made so I can hardly criticise the app.

* This might not have been the best choice, but it's the one I made and I don't have any problems with it other than navigating to the correct location from my PC every time I connect.  I did manage to save a shortcut to a subdirectory but it usually comes up empty after a wait and then I need to navigate upwards before I actually gain access.  This may, or may not, work for you, and may be specific to my Boox device.

[jws01]

Hi Johannes,
umm, stupid question time...

You do realise that using this method you need to copy your PDFs into the desired locations manually, right?
Then, when you do the import, MS will use the PDFs directly from those locations.
...
Although you can use any accessible location on the device (there are problems associated with removable storage so don't put anything there), in my case I used the default storage location: "/storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files", as my top level directory for my different library storage locations*.  E.G.:
/storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files/libraryname1
/storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files/libraryname2
etc..
...
* This might not have been the best choice, but it's the one I made and I don't have any problems with it other than navigating to the correct location from my PC every time I connect.  I did manage to save a shortcut to a subdirectory but it usually comes up empty after a wait and then I need to navigate upwards before I actually gain access.  This may, or may not, work for you, and may be specific to my Boox device.

Hi Lawrie,

now I got it: 
The Current Setting: /storage/emulated/0/MobileSheetsPro  in Storage>Set the MS Storage Location
is only the *root* directory!
Each (non default) library has (an automatic created) subdirectory with the name of the library!

@zubersoft (mike)
However the text of Storage>Set the MS Storage Location  is wrong and misleading!
Wrong:
"Sets the folder to use for files managed by MobileSheets. If you import from Drobox, an email, or some other non-local source, your files will be copied into this directory."

Better: 
"Sets the ROOT folder to use for files managed by MobileSheets and adds there the 'Default' library (mobilesheets.db)
A subfolder for each own library will be automatically created with the choosen name for the library and then includes the data base.
If you import from Drobox, an email, or some other non-local source, your files will be copied into this library Subdirectory."

@Lawrie you mentioned
"You do realise that using this method you need to copy your PDFs into the desired locations manually, right?
Then, when you do the import, MS will use the PDFs directly from those locations."
That's only correct for the non-local source files!
The PDFs which are added by csv import can be elswhere (where the PDF- and the corresponding CSV-file are located)

Do you agree?
Regards Johannes

[Zubersoft]

Whether a subdirectory is used per library depends on whether the user has chosen to enable the option to isolate storage for each library. The default library has no subdirectory unless the user specifically changes this by editing the default library under Settings->Library Settings->Manage Libraries. Trying to capture all of these little details in a single setting description would most likely just confuse users, and most users don't really care about where the files are stored (they care more about there being no conflicts between libraries).

Mike

[Lawrie]

now I got it: 
The Current Setting: /storage/emulated/0/MobileSheetsPro  in Storage>Set the MS Storage Location
is only the *root* directory!
Each (non default) library has (an automatic created) subdirectory with the name of the library!
<snip>
@Lawrie you mentioned
"You do realise that using this method you need to copy your PDFs into the desired locations manually, right?
Then, when you do the import, MS will use the PDFs directly from those locations."
That's only correct for the non-local source files!
The PDFs which are added by csv import can be elswhere (where the PDF- and the corresponding CSV-file are located)
Do you agree?

G'day Johannes,
Not necessarily.
Creation of a library does not necessarily mean that a subdirectory is automatically created - this depends entirely on what settings you've made in config.
My subdirectories were all created before the auto-creation feature existed, and I've chosen to maintain that behaviour.

Umm, no?
If by non-local you mean imported directly from a cloud service like google docs, then no.  Those imports will always copy the files (PDF, abc &etc.) to the default location. 
Songs imported from local storage will stay in the location you imported from. (N.B. this applies only when you prevent MS from managing files as you have stated above).

If I've understood you correctly, this also applies to CSV imports.

This is why, if you want to manage your storage locations yourself, you need to copy PDFs etc., and PDF/CSV pairs into the desired location before import.

Maybe the term "import" needs defining in the MS context.  "Import" primarily means creating a database entry, with associated metadata.  IF MS is managing storage, it also means that MS will copy (and optionally delete the source) PDFs et al to the location MS is managing, BUT if you are manually managing your files, then no copy is done, with the exception that imports from cloud services will always be copied.
(I think I've got this right - I only use manual copies from my PC to my tablet and storage management by MS is turned OFF)